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Is using Lock-On a huge advantage?
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| Turalyon | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:10 PM | Message # 16 |
 Clan Protector
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| Quote (Bambam) As for Clanwars:
Lock loses more and more importance the better the players are (because good players can counter it and use these disadvantages extremely well), so I guess that this question doesnt matter a lot in CWs anyways.
I still use mix on Trainings and I would use them on Clanwarses if it would be allowed. Yet I still haven't seen a Warrior counter me. Fuzz is on a good way I'd say, but I haven't been mixing against him lately, so I can't say for sure. Quote (Jilako) Plus , when a new player start locking, why would he stops?
For the same reason he started. He wants to play better.
A new player will play better if he's allowed to you Lock-On ... and a really good player will play even better if he stops using Lock-On (in most cases that is). Quote (Jilako) Archer is also hard to deal with when you begin , but it has no help from computer.
It is hard to begin with, so is Priest (probably Priest is the hardest to begin with - but it has abilities which you learn in time that give you the advantage for it). And the same goes for Archer. He can use Bramble arrow, Poison Arrow, Fire Arrow, any really ... They can all be effective and they can not if you miss.
But let's look at it from this angle.
You are both of the same skill:
Two new players, one a melee class using Lock-On and the other one is Archer. Both have equal chance to kill the other one, because 1.) Archer can shoot him before the melee class reaches him 2.) Warrior can avoid the arrows or Archer just misses him and kill him in close combat.
Two good players, one a melee class using Lock-On and the other one is Archer. Both have equal chance to kill the other one, because 1.) A good Archer can predict the movement of the melee class and kill him way before him reaching the Archer 2.) Warrior can avoid the arrows, use jumps, or what ever to get to the Archer. Warrior has no long-range attacks that could kill the Archer without even getting close. It's the Archer's fault he was not accurate enough, he didn't dodge well or didn't use environment enough, that the melee class got too near.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Hell | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:17 PM | Message # 17 |
 Rank VII
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| Quote (Turalyon) I still use mix on Trainings and I would use them on Clanwarses if it would be allowed.
Told ya, Fuzz!  He does uses mix
I'm hot, u r not!
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| Jilako | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:27 PM | Message # 18 |
 Rank VII
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| Quote I actually stopped locking because of you, Jil, because you explained me (as mage) that I could be a lot more effective without. Besides, I wanted to join EYE, and I actually thought that I wouldn't get into EYE if I locked, heh.
And how many new players, or even simple players take care of tips given to them? Who has never been insulted when trying to help someone? Quote For the same reason he started. He wants to play better.
A new player will play better if he's allowed to you Lock-On ... and a really good player will play even better if he stops using Lock-On (in most cases that is).
That's considering that the player has followed your tips of trying to play without lock-on and that he is willing to gets better by doing so. Many players just think you're a hacker when you're better than them. Quote And the same goes for Archer. He can use Bramble arrow, Poison Arrow, Fire Arrow, any really ... They can all be effective and they can not if you miss.
Yes, they can not if you miss, but the archer has no help just to adapt his aim to the range his arrow will have to cross. He'll have to find by himself, and to be able to always change this because it'll never be same distance to cross.
Quote
Warrior has no long-range attacks that could kill the Archer without even getting close. It's the Archer's fault he was not accurate enough, he didn't dodge well or didn't use environment enough, that the melee class got too near.
And what if the warrior uses last stand? He'll have double life ,so more arrows to hit the enemy which means way more arrows shot (more than double arrows needed to down his first 100 hp, because i doubt all your arrows will hit the enemy..) And as soon as the warrior get close enough, he can puts his lock-on and really rushes you, whereas you, you'll still have to aim. You can use environnement, that's sure, But warrior can do a long jump, longer than you jumping backwards, andwith lock, he can move on the left/right of you at the last moment. Yes you can do it without lock too, but there are people who couldn't do it if they hadn't lock.
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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| Bambam | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:39 PM | Message # 19 |
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| Quote (Jilako) And how many new players, or even simple players take care of tips given to them?
Quote (Bambam) I presumed that the opponents are rather equally in skill (otherwise the discussion is pretty much senseless anyways) and rather experienced players (I guess that these are that matter, I doubt that we'd adjust server settings specially for new players- which are taking the most advantage of lock anyways, simply because the cannot hit properly without it). If a player does not take tips from an experienced player, then he has to find it out the hard way; maybe he'll find out after he got killed 100 times by any missile/bomb/whatever ; if he still hasn't found out then, then he simply deserves to die to them, heh. Quote (Jilako) And what if the warrior uses last stand?
He'll find out fast that after -eventually-killing you , he's left with exactly 1 hp after Last Stand falls off, and will die fast afterwards therefore usually.
Justin Bieber: "I've been sent from god to make music"
Tiësto: "I didn't send anybody"
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| Jilako | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:47 PM | Message # 20 |
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| Quote
He'll find out fast that after -eventually-killing you , he's left with exactly 1 hp after Last Stand falls off, and will die fast afterwards therefore usually.
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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| Turalyon | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:56 PM | Message # 21 |
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| Quote (Jilako) Yes, they can not if you miss, but the archer has no help just to adapt his aim to the range his arrow will have to cross. He'll have to find by himself, and to be able to always change this because it'll never be same distance to cross.
Quote (Jilako) And what if the warrior uses last stand? He'll have double life ,so more arrows to hit the enemy which means way more arrows shot (more than double arrows needed to down his first 100 hp, because i doubt all your arrows will hit the enemy..) And as soon as the warrior get close enough, he can puts his lock-on and really rushes you, whereas you, you'll still have to aim. You can use environnement, that's sure, But warrior can do a long jump, longer than you jumping backwards, andwith lock, he can move on the left/right of you at the last moment. Yes you can do it without lock too, but there are people who couldn't do it if they hadn't lock. I speak all from my experiences ...
If I were to duel you me as Warrior and you as Archer, I think the duels would have 50-50 chance to win on each side. I think we're both equally skilled and even if we changed classes for me to go Archer and you Warrior, the 50-50 would stay the same. True, Last Stand gives you an advantage ... but you have to know when to use it ... maybe Archer just used bramble arrow on you, and escaped you for all the time Last Stand was used.
Maybe just when you used Last Stand, a Mage has spawned and he will come near your location when it's about to fall.
Last Stand is a uniquely great ability, I won't even argue that with Last Stand you are basically unstoppable against any class. And that's why I don't see it as a good example in combination with Lock-On. If it were up to only me, I would remove Lock-On for Clanwarses, not because I find it having too many advantages that can't be countered, but because it would bring a more dynamic gameplay for everybody.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Turalyon | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 9:58 PM | Message # 22 |
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| Quote (Jilako) You'll be dead and have waited 15 seconds to respawn, so, the warrior's mana will be ready for another last stand, he'll be with a bit more of 105 hp with his regeneration. So, if you're using flare arrow, you'll need 1 fully loaded arrow and 2 middle arrows, which is 3 arrows instead of 2. Him, he'll still can jump to you and repeat what he did before on lock, maybe changing a bit his direction of his jump..
We are not discussing this for 1vs1 throughout the whole game.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Jilako | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 11:10 PM | Message # 23 |
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| Quote True, Last Stand gives you an advantage ... but you have to know when to use it ... maybe Archer just used bramble arrow on you, and escaped you for all the time Last Stand was used.
Maybe just when you used Last Stand, a Mage has spawned and he will come near your location when it's about to fall.
Or maybe one team mate comes to help you when you get bramble, or whatever, we can go far with "maybe".
Quote If I were to duel you me as Warrior and you as Archer, I think the duels would have 50-50 chance to win on each side. I think we're both equally skilled and even if we changed classes for me to go Archer and you Warrior, the 50-50 would stay the same.
It's a bit idiot in my opinion to take both us as exemple because we both know many ways to kill the other class that "casuals" people don't. But if it's for clan warses cases, then i agree..
Quote but because it would bring a more dynamic gameplay for everybody.
And more challenging. What's the point into playing a fps when your aim is assisted? (the first one that comes up with fps on consoles where you have assited aim will be sent on a pyre.)
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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| Turalyon | Date: Saturday, 2011-03-05, 11:45 PM | Message # 24 |
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| Quote (Jilako) It's a bit idiot in my opinion to take both us as exemple because we both know many ways to kill the other class that "casuals" people don't. But if it's for clan warses cases, then i agree..
We will not take casual people in account, because on everyday's server play different kinds of people play. One good player can kill any Lock-On or "easy-spells" using enemy. And if you check two random people that are of equal skill and casual skill for overall, again my example gets valid.
Quote (Jilako) And more challenging. What's the point into playing a fps when your aim is assisted? (the first one that comes up with fps on consoles where you have assited aim will be sent on a pyre.)
Now you know EXACTLY why fps melee based games are not so common. FPS games that are singleplayer based are not a problem at all, because computer can't run around you like a retard or jumping over your head (in a literal meaning), for you to not hit him.
And I think that's the only, and a pretty damn solid, reason for installing Lock-On for DMoMM. It's not installed in Singleplayer for the obvious reason.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Jilako | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 9:38 AM | Message # 25 |
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| Quote Now you know EXACTLY why fps melee based games are not so common. FPS games that are singleplayer based are not a problem at all, because computer can't run around you like a retard or jumping over your head (in a literal meaning), for you to not hit him.
Ok, but why then archers (i'll take the case of archers only because usually mages aren't in close range)have no lock? Warriors or assassins often jump over their head and they have to keep aiming the enemy by themselves without any help. Yes, archer is an aiming class, but that doesn't mean that melees have to be assisted into aiming too in my opnion.
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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| DonSpeedy | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 11:50 AM | Message # 26 |
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| Quote (Jilako) Ok, but why then archers (i'll take the case of archers only because usually mages aren't in close range)have no lock? Warriors or assassins often jump over their head and they have to keep aiming the enemy by themselves without any help. Yes, archer is an aiming class, but that doesn't mean that melees have to be assisted into aiming too in my opnion.
agreed here, sounds logical to me. well it would be hard to add that feature into game because it would have to aim infront of the enemy etc. , but in theory i think jil is right at this point 
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| Turalyon | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 12:13 PM | Message # 27 |
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| Quote (Jilako) Ok, but why then archers (i'll take the case of archers only because usually mages aren't in close range)have no lock? Warriors or assassins often jump over their head and they have to keep aiming the enemy by themselves without any help. Yes, archer is an aiming class, but that doesn't mean that melees have to be assisted into aiming too in my opnion.
Again .. *sighs* ... I have to stress out that Archer is a ranged class and can kill enemies before them reaching you.
Melee classes can't.
Tracking enemies that run around randomly from a distance can be tracked easier than in melee combat.
That is why Lock-On was implanted. Your argument is the same as, well if Archer can kill you before you reach him, then why Warriors can't throw swords? They are strong enough aren't they? Or why assassin can't throw his bombs like disc throws in olimpic games? It ain't that hard to throw something as a fist-full rock... Your argument isn't solid enough, I'm sorry. Not for me at least.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Jilako | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 1:25 PM | Message # 28 |
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| Quote then why Warriors can't throw swords? They are strong enough aren't they?
They don't anymore have sword after throwing it , i doubt they're walking with a bag filled up with swords. Quote
Again .. *sighs* ... I have to stress out that Archer is a ranged class and can kill enemies before them reaching you.
It is true when there is one or two enemies, but when 2 warriors and 1 assassin, one of them will at least reach you.
Quote Melee classes can't.
They can get in your back instead of rushing in straight line toward you.
And i'm speaking about a lock with same range than melees, so when they activate it, the enemy is already pretty close, close enough for an assa to throw you a bomb. And assassin is an assassin, not an artilleryman
Plus you perfectly know that you can reach an archer in very few jumps, using your shield, so you won't take damages before getting in range of activating your lock.
Melees can use their lock in case of the enemy start running around them like tards or jumping over them, but melees does it against archers too, but archer can't use any lock to follow his target.
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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| Turalyon | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 2:48 PM | Message # 29 |
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| Quote (Jilako) They don't anymore have sword after throwing it , i doubt they're walking with a bag filled up with swords.
Don't make this an argument towards your course ... same can be said for Arrows that appear without having a quiver to be held in.
Quote (Jilako) It is true when there is one or two enemies, but when 2 warriors and 1 assassin, one of them will at least reach you.
And why is Archer so special that it could take 3 enemies on him and actually win?
Quote (Jilako) They can get in your back instead of rushing in straight line toward you.
And i'm speaking about a lock with same range than melees, so when they activate it, the enemy is already pretty close, close enough for an assa to throw you a bomb. And assassin is an assassin, not an artilleryman
Plus you perfectly know that you can reach an archer in very few jumps, using your shield, so you won't take damages before getting in range of activating your lock.
Melees can use their lock in case of the enemy start running around them like tards or jumping over them, but melees does it against archers too, but archer can't use any lock to follow his target.
Let's see how that would work. Bramble arrow anytime a Melee class gets near, yeah that will help ...
Or the same argument with Drill, Poison, Fire, Triple, Double arrow ... Come on, be rational.
As for the part with the shield ... oh right, now we shrinked melee classes into Warriors only, good we're making progress.
Now let's talk about Warriors's Lock-On only.
Warrior shield in fact does block arrows, but using it while you jump, or while you run from far away, will make it really slower for you, and most cases (at least 95% of the Warriors) won't use it all the time until they reach the Archer, which again means Archer can hit them. I've died MANY countless times because I lowered my shield just to jump near the Archer.
And even if you do get close enough with your lowering-rising-shield mixes, you did achieve something Archer didn't even have to, you avoided his Arrows sort of speak.
And again, if he gets into range of your arrows to shoot him in the leg or head, he still needs one big jump to get to you. So you got 3 options.
You try to shoot him from that distance, you want for him to jump and hit him in the air, where he won't use his shield or you'll just run a little back and turn while in flight to shoot him. I think it's weird ... maybe I use some sort of extra options or something, because I never had too many problems people using Lock-On on me when I played Archer. Not even good melee classes. I suppose the rumors are correct, I am weird and inhuman.
Your reasoning is excellent -- it's only your basic assumptions that are wrong.
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| Dragonfighter | Date: Sunday, 2011-03-06, 6:41 PM | Message # 30 |
 Rank VI
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| I think lock is a normal thing. I sometimes play with a mix of lock and normal playing. If you lock, you cant move that much....You arent free to go. And I think THATS the most important reason for me. Lock is okay, to kill an enemy which runs away. But thats it I would say. In CW it should be allowed to, coz maybe some players will use a mix too. And if they dont, you dont have to turn it off coz they wont use it anyway...
What manner of man is a man, who's not trying to change the world?!
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